Editing Module talk:Hatnote (section)

== forSee addition ==

I've been toying around with the <code>forSee</code> function I've added to [[Module:Hatnote/sandbox]]. The basic idea is that since a ton of hatnotes produce some variation on a list of "<code><nowiki>For X, see [[Y]]</nowiki></code>" statements, formatting those should be available through [[Module:Hatnote]].

The main function currently takes three functions:
* A list of arguments, with empty parameters and whitespace pre-trimmed (well, <code>_forSee</code> takes argument list directly, <code>forSee</code> uses <code>getArgs(frame)</code>)
* A "from" number, which causes it to start from the parameter of that number (e.g. set to 2 to skip past the initial parameter used in {{tl|redirect}})
* An options table, because that's pretty standard.

The function appears to work ''reasonably'' well, but it could probably be more elegant. In particular, I'm thinking it would probably make sense to split out the part that preprocesses the arguments list, to make it easier for variants to make sneaky additions. Or perhaps the function should be its own module. Or perhaps there are other places it should be tweaked…

[[Template:Redirect/testcases|Initial results]] from some quick hacks at [[Module:Redirect hatnote/sandbox]] suggest that it mostly works, although some edge cases may be off, i.e.

<code><nowiki>{{redirect|REDIRECT|USE1|PAGE1|USE2}}</nowiki></code> → {{redirect|REDIRECT|USE1|PAGE1|USE2}}
<code><nowiki>{{redirect/sandbox|REDIRECT|USE1|PAGE1|USE2}}</nowiki></code> → {{redirect/sandbox|REDIRECT|USE1|PAGE1|USE2}}

Anyways, since this would presumably be put into widespread use, I'd appreciate it if I'm not the only person looking over it. Thoughts? <span style="white-space:nowrap;">{&#123;[[User:Nihiltres|<span style="color:#233D7A;">Nihiltres</span>]]&#8202;&#124;[[User talk:Nihiltres|talk]]&#8202;&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Nihiltres|edits]]}&#125;</span> 16:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
:I am still missing the core analysis of hatnote templates. That is: {{cl|Hatnote templates}} has ~60 hatnotes, and more in subcategories. What is the ''pattern'' in all these? My first throw:
:{{purple|Primary}}: <code>class=hatnote</code>. Then there are '''topics''' ('about topic X'), and there are '''target pages''' ('see page Y') possibly in a '''list''', and their '''semantics''' (describe relevance for hatnoting). The rest is ''filler & format''.
:{{purple|Secondary}}: the templates use '''&lt;PAGENAME>''', '''labels''' (as in <code><nowiki>[[page|label]]</nowiki></code>), incoming '''Redirect''' and automatic addition of '''(disambiguation)''' --(dab) for short--. [First behaviour I'd like to kill is the ''automatic'' addition of '(dab)' in hatnote templates. Even worse: it is combined with &lt;PAGENAME> to double the frustration. Please stop 'helping' me this way: when I write a hatnote, I know what I'm talking about. Actually, nowadays I only use {{tl|hatnote}} and compose the text myself)].
:{{purple|Tertionary}}: listing handling, grammar
:{{purple|Quartiorinario and below}}:
::-- texts applied
::-- style options (allow page style adaptions, ENGVAR)
::-- other stuff: errors, categorising, option 'internal wikipedia', ...
:Now the generic module:hatnote should cover or plainly plainly reject ''all'' these issues ''with the right priority''. (I don't think this sandbox proposal does. Why should the core module contain sentence stuff, or words like "for"? That's for the specialised modules to add, eg using "opening text, prefix list text, list separator", not main mod:hatnote).
:-[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 17:19, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
::{{re|DePiep}} I very much like thinking about the underlying design principles of hatnotes, but that's outside of the scope of this discussion.
::My first goal in the Grand Hatnote Overhaul (or whatever) is to modernize the existing set of templates, normalize existing usage, excise needless variant templates, and restrict the scope of each remaining variant template to a singular purpose.
::In other words, the rough plan for the Grand Hatnote Overhaul:
::#Clean up, centralize, and modernize existing stuff ("simplify the landscape")
::#Hold discussions on how hatnotes ought to be: scope, intent, features, etc. (design questions)
::#Work towards implementing hatnotes as they ought to be (implementation of improved designs)
::There is a ''lot'' of work that needs to be done to clean up the existing system, and that should be prioritized so that once we start asking questions they're more meaningful and productive. Perhaps we should start a WikiProject to coordinate the cleanup work…
::In the meantime, for the purpose of making this ''existing pattern'' more standard, without regard to how good or bad the pattern may be, is this function a good implementation? How can it be improved upon, again excluding changes to the ''pattern'' from the scope? <span style="white-space:nowrap;">{&#123;[[User:Nihiltres|<span style="color:#233D7A;">Nihiltres</span>]]&#8202;&#124;[[User talk:Nihiltres|talk]]&#8202;&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Nihiltres|edits]]}&#125;</span> 19:20, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
:::Of course, I am a commentor and you carry the can so that's the end point.
:::But. I am not talking about an ''existing'' pattern, I mean to say ''intrinsic'' pattern: the core essential of any hatnote (my {{purple|Primary}} notes).
:::Since you propose to change the top hatnote module, one cannot skip the top hatnote issues (in your reply and sandbox you do: in creeps a 'for every hatnote a dedicated function').
:::Skipping the core (say #0 in your listing above) will not solve anything. It will just postpone things.
:::For example, when I wrote my [[#New docstyle]] section below, I was flabbergasted to learn that the word "Topic2" is used both as ''topic'' and! as ''pagename'' (and another! weird thing happens in the current sandbox). This mixup/separation should be prevented in any mod:hatnote.
:::So, mod:hatnote must handle topics & pages distinct, must be able to make a listing, and must organise those say grammatically (ie allow text additions and formatting, but not prescribe them). Otherwise, you are not cleaning but replacing the dirt. (I'm writing tough to be clear) -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 19:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
:::::I'm happy to "replace the dirt" if it means replacing random dirt with centralized, standard, reusable dirt. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">{&#123;[[User:Nihiltres|<span style="color:#233D7A;">Nihiltres</span>]]&#8202;&#124;[[User talk:Nihiltres|talk]]&#8202;&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Nihiltres|edits]]}&#125;</span> 19:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
::::::You are too arrogant to be trusted with such a job. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 21:03, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
::::I'd like to read the advise of {{U|Mr. Stradivarius}} about this (Strad wrote this module). -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 20:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)